When Herb Dean stopped the fight between Fedor Emelianenko and Dan Henderson on Saturday night at Strikeforce, his stoppage was neither good nor bad. It was imperfect, but wholly appropriate. Luke Thomas makes the case that the vocabulary of stoppage classification is distorting our ability to properly evaluate them.
Aug 1, 2011 - Speaking anecdotally, most observers view Herb Dean's decision to stop the fight between Fedor Emelianenko and Dan Henderson as the right one. However, there is a vocal minority who underscore Emelianenko made a natural if basic defensive maneuver directly after Dean's interference. In other words, there's some debate about whether the stoppage was good or bad.
The truth is it was neither, at least as we traditionally use the terms, and the vocabulary of defining stoppages as 'either-or' limits our ability to properly evaluate referee stoppages.
MMA currently views stoppages as a function of a binary system: they're either 'good' or 'bad'. These terms have some value as a designation and there is a difference between them, but are ultimately too narrow. What Fedor Emelianenko vs. Dan Henderson teaches us is that we're using the wrong language to describe referee stoppages and thus thinking about them in ways that obscure important nuance.
Dean's stoppage is 'bad' if what we are seeking is cleanliness. It isn't merely surgical precision we are asking of referee, but perfect execution of the duties discharged to them in a moment of obvious and unequivocal need. Ememlianko turning face up at the very moment or just after Dean's intervention suggests to some the fighter was prevented from continuing before he could rally a defense while he was capable of rallying a defense. And they have a point.
The suggestion Emelianenko was unconscious and woken up by subsequent punches is, at best, conjecture. The video tape is entirely inconclusive. I dismiss these arguments out of hand.
Other arguments, though, suggest because Emelianenko seemed wobbled and hurt as he stood to his feet after the fight was stopped, and that therefore the stoppage was good, are completely immaterial. Fighters are permitted, routinely I might add, to compete rocked, hurt or in sundry other dubious cognitive states. While I admit UFC lightweight champion Frankie Edgar did more in terms of self defense and evasive maneuvering, he also fought incredibly hurt for at least a full MMA round if not more against Gray Maynard at UFC 125. Fighting rocked isn't a deal breaker, it's part of the game. What we're looking for is the tipping point where competing hurt turns into not competing much at all.
And that's where things on Saturday night get muddled.
Emelianenko sliding face first and going limp after eating Henderson's right hand is about the surest physical sign to referees that a fighter is either in huge trouble or out altogether. Referees are taught that going face first (and in this case, limp) is worse than falling back first, at least in many cases. That Henderson was able to quickly jump on top of Emelianenko and follow with two more hard, unanswered punches (arguably illegal punches, although somewhat understandable given the conditions) told Dean that Emelianenko was in serious danger if the bout wasn't stopped.
Dean is not a mind reader. He cannot use telepathy to sense if a fighter has lost key cognitive awareness. He does his job by gathering physical cues from basic human senses and uses that, to the best of his ability, to make a decision about what is in the fighters' best interest. Emelianenko going limp is the sort of dead giveaway that impermissible trouble is a punch or two away if Dean doesn't do his job.
Yet, despite going limp and being obviously hurt, Fedor quickly turned over just after the fight was stopped. This isn't some monumental achievement and perhaps the product of muscle memory or instinctive reaction. But it could also be an instance of Emelianenko trying to intelligently defend himself. We won't ever really know and neither group that view that stoppage as good or bad can be truly sure.
What we do know is this fight teaches us referee Herb Dean was obeying proper protocol and yet, proper protocol might not be always enough when it comes to giving competitive fighters every chance they deserve.
What the MMA community has to accept is that there is a natural gap between what constitutes a proper stoppage according to referee protocol and a fighter being completely, cleanly incapacitated. The two are not mutually exclusive. It is both possible for the referee to do their job to the letter of the law and simultaneously prevent a fighter who potentially could've offered more. The overwhelming majority of stoppages, both 'good' and 'bad', are defined in two parts: the decision of the referee to end the bout at the appropriate time and the fight itself organically taking a turn that called for action. In the case of Fedor vs. Henderson, we have the former without having the latter.
Our rules that govern referee behavior are excellent. I am in no way suggesting this fight proves they need to be amended. They intuitively make sense, prioritize fighter safety appropriately and have a demonstrated record of working. Yet, they do not and, realistically, cannot solve for the totality of professional MMA bouts without some measure of controversy. That's true even when the referee is employing best practices.
This fight stoppage was neither 'good' nor 'bad' as we traditionally define those terms. What we know for certain is Dean had cause to act and there is some evidence Emelianenko had more to give. The two will live in conflict forever and that's ok. That's just part of the game.
Comments
man i dont know, when brock was demolished by carwin the ref let him take unlimited amount of dmg….even if fedor went limp for a split sec, when he hit the ground he was making a DEFENSIVE move to turn around on the ground….herb IMO stopped it lil early…he left the ? mark for the fans…he should have let fedor tried to fight just few secs longer that way there is no ? mark. was herb dean paid, lol? its a joke dont freak ppl.
by iron fists on Aug 1, 2011 5:29 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Brock was on his back with his arms up
Brock was lucid and in communication with the referee. I don’t think it’s comparable. Fedor going limp and face-planting for what might be at the very most 2 seconds is enough for a ref like Dean to step in and make the decision to stop the fight to prevent Fedor taking any more damage.
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by KJ Gould on Aug 1, 2011 6:14 AM PDT up reply actions
how many times have we seen fights
were a fighter is out, when he hits ground or gets hit again he wakes up and is able to recover??? alot…it was a quick stoppage. im not saying it was wrong. but lil quick…there was a lil window of oppertunity there. well at least fedor made it look that way turning around the last sec. either way. quick
by iron fists on Aug 1, 2011 8:06 AM PDT up reply actions
getting donkey konged on the forearms
and going completely limp and take a full on shot to the back of the head and showing no reaction are two completely different situations.
That is one of the major points of this article, that no two stoppages are the same situation. Based on the angle that Dean had and in the moment: Fedor limp, taking shots and his left arm folded under him doing the funky chicken with the impact of each punch, I support his call to stop the fight.
It wasn’t a perfect stoppage, but Dean made a call in a split second and in that split second it was 100% correct to protect the fighter.
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by T.P. Grant on Aug 1, 2011 6:24 AM PDT up reply actions
I think to much is being made of this
Fedor was out, he took a huge uppercut and went limp, in that state, he wasn’t defending himself and Hendo was continuing to land shots
Dean jumped in, and then Fedor rolled over, but had Dean not stepped in and physically blocked Hendo, Henderson would have continued raining shots down, the only thing that stopped the punches there, was Dean.
Henderson when he gets a guy down like that, is dropping bombs and this was no different, Fedor went out and even when he rolled over, his arms were still at his sides, Hendo more than likely would have continued pounding him till he was completely unconscious, if he wasn’t already.
by RJK256 on Aug 1, 2011 6:29 AM PDT up reply actions
I’ve always been skeptical of Herb Dean. I feel like he’s unsure of himself many times when in the octagon. Can’t think of anything worse than that for a referee. The other thing I notice is that he spends a lot of time behind the fighters. There was a lot of that in this fight. That’s the worst possible place for a referee. You’d be better off at ringside watching a monitor.
Let me just say that I hear people calling Herb Dean one of the best. For me, he’s one of the worst and when he’s in the ring I’m always a little uneasy. That is not a compliment.
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by jebushchrist on Aug 1, 2011 6:13 AM PDT reply actions
I'm not sure I get your line of thinking
Saying Herb Dean is unsure of himself suggests he’s indecisive, which is anything but what happened in the Fedor vs Henderson fight. Being indecisive usually accounts for fights not being stopped soon enough which is far worse than a bout ending slightly prematurely.
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by KJ Gould on Aug 1, 2011 6:16 AM PDT up reply actions
I never said this was a bad stoppage. Fedor was limp, it’s a wrap. I was commenting on Dean having a rep as a great ref when I think he’s as bad as Mazz.
However, he’s had terrible stoppages in the past, first that comes to mind was Shamrock/Ortiz II. And then his inconsistent stand-ups. I think Matt Wiman would agree, as would Gabriel Gonzaga (Cro Cop fight).
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by jebushchrist on Aug 1, 2011 6:47 AM PDT up reply actions
tan dan is indecisive
yves lavigne has had a couple of notorious incidents of indecisiveness. dean has never done any of that.
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by Cory Braiterman on Aug 1, 2011 6:17 AM PDT up reply actions
Didn't Dean ref Kongo/Barry?
I remember some indecision there. I may be wrong, though.
by POW on Aug 1, 2011 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions
That was either Rosenthal or Tan Dan
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by Chris Hall on Aug 2, 2011 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions
this is indecisive
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by T.P. Grant on Aug 1, 2011 6:29 AM PDT up reply actions
if someone can get a gif of Lavigne stopping and then starting that fight^
we can drive that point home
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Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
~ Napoleon Bonaparte
Teachers open the door, but you must enter by yourself
~ Chinese Proverb
by T.P. Grant on Aug 1, 2011 6:30 AM PDT up reply actions
Im not defending Yves.
But the fighter signed a “fight” contract. He has the ability to tap out and his corner can toss the towel for a stoppage if that’s what he wanted to happen.
Yves can’t interfer because Drago is getting handled. He can only end it when he taps or it’s clearly finished (which it wasn’t).
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by Bigger Zino on Aug 1, 2011 6:34 AM PDT up reply actions
well this is after
Matt Brown had already dropped him, Levinge stepped in to stop the fight, stopped the fight but Sell popped back up so Lavinge just stepped back like he didn’t just stop the fight and restarted the action.
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Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
~ Napoleon Bonaparte
Teachers open the door, but you must enter by yourself
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by T.P. Grant on Aug 1, 2011 6:36 AM PDT up reply actions
its been a while and i don’t remember the whole fight.
I hear you.
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by Bigger Zino on Aug 1, 2011 6:38 AM PDT up reply actions
I listened to Luke talk about this on his radio show last night
And I agree that it’s imperfect. But I’ll also say it’s going to be near impossible to improve officiating in circumstances like that without the expecting the referees to be clairvoyant. Interestingly I believe if Fedor had had a Folkstyle wrestling background he would have reacted better to when Henderson escaped from under him and hit something like a short sit-out instinctively which would have kept him in the fight and a better position to defend against the right hand of Hendo.
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by KJ Gould on Aug 1, 2011 6:21 AM PDT reply actions
There is no such thing
as a perfect stoppage. For philosophical purposes nothing in the universe is perfect, that is why we exist because of imperfectness. Even a perfect cut diamond can be evaluated by others not to be perfect let alone a decision made in split second in time. Good or bad do apply.We can judge Dean’s decision by the facts and evaluate with our eyes individually what we think happened but the only person that was there a few inches away was Dean. We can than evaluate his decision based on his experience and track record.
Why was Deans decision a good one? Based on the replay Fedor was out with the first uppercut this is irrefutable, after Hendo hit him a couple more times, Fedor turned around flailing his arms. The question is, was he defending himself in an intelligent manner or not. Dean which by all means saw things better than anybody decided that Fedor did not defend himself intelligently, also if you look at the replay he hugged dean and had a difficult time getting up. Good call.
by Coeman on Aug 1, 2011 7:57 AM PDT up reply actions
My personal opinion...
…is that since the Carwin/Lesnar fight people have been riding the nuts of anyone who lets a fight go on a little longer than necessary. In the .05% of times when the outcome actually changes (Kongo/Barry) I understand their excitement, but c’mon, Carwin vs. Mir or Forrest vs. Rashad were atrocious. If someone goes limp and doesn’t respond to punches the ref should step in and stop it.
Would it have been amazing if Fedor had come back and given us the three round slugfest we were hoping for? Of course. But I’m skeptical given how even after he rolled over his arms went to Brock Lesnar punch defense mode (AKA arms straight forward not doing anything to block punches) and Dan was dropping bombs from side control.
I think people are letting their unrealistic optimism get in the way of what was, sadly, the right call. If I’m fighting, I would want Herb Dean reffing because he’s not going to let me eat 10 shots after I’m out or continue punching someone who can no longer defend himself.
by Confucius on Aug 1, 2011 6:22 AM PDT reply actions
The onus of responsibility (when stopping a fight) is shared by the fighter and his team
These are professional athletes. Dan Henderson is reportedly making 800k per fight, Fedor is probably in the ball park + or – .
At this level it’s your job as a fighter, manager of a fighter, coach, or cornerman to discuss with your referee how you want the fight judged prior to the contest. If you ask Herb Dean for a little leeway he will probably give it to you during hard times in the match. If you also asked him to step in for you when it looks like you’ve lost your wits, then he’ll do that too.
When nobody speaks to the referee and communicates how they would like to be handled during the fight than there is zero room for complaint. Fedor in this case got hit with a pretty good shot and his chin bounced off the canvas. Hendo could have landed a lot more damage if Herb wasn’t covering Fedor up with his body, who knows what Dan might have landed without the interference.
Fighters need to learn to communicate their wishes to their assigned referee before the fight. This stoppage was perfectly acceptable. Herb Dean is not there to entertain people. His role in the whole MMA picture is not to win the fans over. His mandate is to prepare a fair playing field, enforce the rules of MMA and protect the fighters health with his best judgement.
Herb Dean is one of the best.
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by Bigger Zino on Aug 1, 2011 6:23 AM PDT reply actions
Dean is working for the athletic commission and his first priority is fighter safety
He should have no outside influence other than his own judgement, here I thought it was pretty good.
Had this been anyone except Fedor, I don’t think we would be hearing this
The guy went completely limp, and like Fedor himself said, he isn’t a robot or machine, he isn’t god-like either, he is mortal and he can lose. You are spot on though, Hendo would have continued dropping bombs and Dean stopped it, Fedors arms were at his sides and Hendo was throwing bombs on a prone opponent, there is no way Fedor is recovering from that – Dean likely saved him a severe concussion.
by RJK256 on Aug 1, 2011 6:33 AM PDT up reply actions
I hope you’re not suggesting that fighters should tell refs how to ref….and that said refs might actually take note of how a particular fighter wants his/her fight officiated.
No sir, I don't like it.
by OmoPlata on Aug 1, 2011 6:48 AM PDT up reply actions
Yes and No.
Ultimately the power remains with the referee. I am only claiming that i think fighters and fight team managers need to communicate with the ref about how far into deep water they want to take the fight when things aren’t going well.
Setting the scene and including your bout ref in an open dialogue will only help you fight the fight you trained for. Some guys like to go out on their shield and others live to fight another day. Express that to your ref and hopefully he allows your wishes to be part of his evaluating criteria before a stoppage.
It worked for Lesnar before the Carwin fight. I heard that he asked Rosenthal to give him a wide gap before calling the fight. Looks like that was good decision making/fight prep.
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by Bigger Zino on Aug 1, 2011 6:58 AM PDT up reply actions
You can’t do that because no fighter is going to say, stop it as soon as I get hurt, almost any guy in here, is going to want to go out on their shield
the ref is there to protect the fighters, first and foremost, from themselves as well. No fighter wants a fight to end because of a cut or swelling of the eye either, but it has to be, for safety.
Dean made the right call here, and the only reason Hendo stopped dropping bombs was Dean stepping in, and Hendo kept throwing, it was when Hendo got up, that Fedor sat up, that was another 2-3 punches that could have landed in that time.
Brock never stopped defending and moving – Fedor went completely limp – that is a huge difference, the moment you face plan and your arms are at your sides, the ref should stop the fight as the fighter isn’t intelligently defending.
As to shots to the back of the head – it is a tough call in the heat of a moment, especially when a guy is prone and face down, to punch the sides of the head, this rule really is for a guy when his back is taken, to protect him. I love Fedor but here, I have to agree with Dean on how the fight was called. When Fedor went limp, I knew it was over and it should be over.
by RJK256 on Aug 1, 2011 7:22 AM PDT up reply actions
I also heard Miguel Torress was sending a message to WEC refs that he didnt want his fights stopped early if he was in trouble. He wanted to be clearly defeated before losing his championship.
Bowles clearly made that happen.
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by Bigger Zino on Aug 1, 2011 7:01 AM PDT up reply actions
What fighter is going to say, "Stop the fight if I'm in trouble"
They all want leeway, the ref needs to use his judgement. Dean’s judgement saved Fedor from 2-5 more shots. Fedor rolling over meant his face was about to take punishment. If a fighter wants to bail, he can always tap to strikes. The ref is there to protect the a knocked out fighter or one who is too stunned to realize it’s a wrap.
by the Cobras on Aug 1, 2011 7:16 AM PDT up reply actions
what fighter?
i can’t answer that. But it would probably come from guys on the regional circuit who want cage experience but not become punch drunk before they can peak in their individual career. Remember, not everyone training and competing is going to make a career out of this.
In the context of my post i think it’s important to remember there are thousands of MMA fighters employed outside of Zuffa and other major MMA orgs.
To be honest, (for example)
It would not hurt my feelings if Sakuraba all of a sudden started telling the refs to step in a little sooner than later. Maybe the warrior spirit would prevent that from occuring but his coach should tell the ref something like “listen Saku isn’t going to stop fighting… he’s got 5 more bout agreements and he needs to honor them, don’t let him get totally knocked cold, aim for a tko before a ko stoppage wherever possible”
The Mayhem Miller fight was a prime example of where this logic could be used.
At the end of the day, when Main Event fighters are making millions of dollars, my point about the onus being on them to collaborate with the ref is just one tiny piece of the whole nights sequence of events. Perfect solution? No, not even close. Helpful? maybe.
You might be suprised how many athletes we have in MMA now he may prefer the extra buffer of protection to maintain a longer career term. Other guys, just want to bang. I get that. The second stage of this argument is splicing fighters into two groups.
A) Fighters who compete &
B) Athletes who fight
for another day…
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by Bigger Zino on Aug 1, 2011 8:10 AM PDT up reply actions
I think you have some excellent points here Luke and
I completely agree.
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by DreamingOfFighting on Aug 1, 2011 6:41 AM PDT reply actions
I agree with everything Luke just wrote. There is simply no way to remove the human component of reffing, and that is a fundamental aspect of every popular sport. You will never know what would have happened if the fight continued, but with the mere chance of serious brain injury should be cause enough to stop the fight. I have always believed that part of refereeing fights is to save a troubled fighter from himself. Whether this is fedors last fight or not is irrelevant. Each fight is not life or death, fedor was given the chance to live and fight another day.
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by crinow on Aug 1, 2011 7:48 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
Good way to phrase the stoppage. I thought stopping it was ok, but he seemed to take too long once deciding to get in there and really get Hendo off. Like he was half in there for a couple shots. Which of course gives Fedor even more time to gather himself before the fight looks truly stopped and makes it look bad.
But it definitely looked like Dean made the decision to stop the fight while Fedor was on his face getting pounded on the head.
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by JeremyShane on Aug 1, 2011 8:20 AM PDT reply actions
Emelianenko Survived a KO!
Bottom line: Fedor was a right hand away from getting unconscious.
Dean made the right call.
Next…
by alexnexus on Aug 1, 2011 8:23 AM PDT reply actions
I'll have more on this later
But a lot of this analysis is coming from watching super slo mo animated GIFS of a sequence of events that took place in one second. Fedor goes from “faceplanting,” to turning over to his back in two seconds, in between which he was busy eating two quasi legal punches
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by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 1, 2011 8:59 AM PDT reply actions
agreed it happened really fast. But..
My issue is that Fedor ate a right that face planted him but he immediately was moving his hands up to get up when the first of two blows to the back of the head landed finishing the job. He was surviving moving his arms and still on his knees until the shot to the back of the head. Not sure how to handle that situation as it happens so fast.
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by CROOKS on Aug 1, 2011 9:15 AM PDT up reply actions
Common Snowden,
You got to let it go.
by Coeman on Aug 1, 2011 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions
Fuck that
I disagree with him and I don’t want him to “let it go.” And Snowden is a lot of things, but he is not common.
by Confucius on Aug 1, 2011 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Common Confucius,
You got to let it go.
by Sqwibbs on Aug 1, 2011 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Imperfect Stoppage?
Leave it to the Fedor nutt-huggers to make excuses for this loss. Let’s just face it… The riddle of Fedor is solved: When he fights top opposition he loses. Plain and simple. Beating former UFC champs that are past thier prime is one thing, but beating the current crop of top fighters is another entirely. Fedor has ducked the top guys for so long and was exposed when he finally saddled up.
I’m glad we can finally put a headstone on this guys career. He was the product of creative matchmaking not athletic greatness. Good riddance Fedor.
by BadVibesMF on Aug 1, 2011 9:20 AM PDT reply actions
ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED??
Bash the guy all you want but this guy puts on some of the best fights to watch. That was crazy action right from the opening bell. Seriously, I not sure what more you want as an MMA fan. Obviously you understand guys age because that’s half your argument that he sucks as he has only fought has beens according to you. Time catches everyone and in his prime he fought the best available. Sure not EVERY time. You can’t look at guys now and discredit past accomplishments. That’s very unrealistic.
You act as if he got his ass handed to him when he was actually close to winning the fight. That’s the crazy MMA game. Legends will fade as some already have. Enjoy it while you can.
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by CROOKS on Aug 1, 2011 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions
"Leave it to the Fedor nutt-huggers to make excuses for this loss"
I predicted Henderson to win by stoppage on television:
http://www.sbnation.com/mma/2011/7/25/2292029/strikeforce-fedor-vs-henderson-prediction-preview-mma-news
What THE FUCK are you talking about?
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by Luke Thomas on Aug 1, 2011 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions
Right and
Despite death threats and crazy talk from Fedor’s “Little Monsters” you called it but I have feeling there is a need to apologize for what happened. People need to except it, its not the O.J trial. Good call by Herb Dean move on.
by Coeman on Aug 1, 2011 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions
Fedor was flat on his face for 2 seconds, after he rolled over his body language was telling that he’s in Stary Oskol feeding chickens, while Hendo was in side control throwing bombs.
Don’t stoppages like that make MMA safer than boxing?
Since sunday I have a feeling that some people would like to have 8 count in MMA.
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by dancingChicken on Aug 1, 2011 9:48 AM PDT reply actions
I don't think there is a problem with a black and white definition of a stoppage.
As long as the two options are justified and unjustified. Herb had 1 second to decide if Fedor was in a position where he would be taking unnecessary damage that could put his health at risk. He made a justified call to stop the fight.
I don’t think it would have been right for him to wait longer to make that decision.
by Sqwibbs on Aug 1, 2011 10:19 AM PDT reply actions
all i can say about this is...
WHO CARES!!! Ortiz vs Evans is next week, lets get pumped for it!!!!
by Hellrazer on Aug 1, 2011 11:15 AM PDT reply actions
Simple and perfect assessment:
"A philosopher and solitary by instinct, who has found his advantage in standing aside and outside, in patience, in procrastination, in staying behind; as a spirit of daring and experiment that has already lost its way once in every labyrinth of the future; as a soothsayer-bird spirit who looks back when relating what will come." -Nietzsche
by Dallas Winston on Aug 1, 2011 11:56 AM PDT reply actions
What will you dismiss next the sun coming up every morning?, seriously i’ve read alot of delusional stuff but this might be at the top. Fedor went out and was woken up by Dan’s punches there is no conjecture that’s what happened, when you want to argue reality come back to me.
by Raker on Aug 1, 2011 8:58 PM PDT reply actions
You’re commenting on my article. You come back to me, Mr. Omnicompetent. Badly dazed and completely unconscious are leagues apart, rick.
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by Luke Thomas on Aug 3, 2011 7:39 PM PDT up reply actions
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